Relatonships and money

Posted by theworld (162 days ago)

so you are seeing someone who's around the same age as you but earns less than you.

are you expected to be paying for her whenever you go out, for meals etc and also for holidays?

i guess what's expected these days?

(I am based in Other)

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Posted by kaileyb (162 days ago)

I guess this depends on things like how much of an income disparity are we talking about between you and her and cultural expectations etc. If you earn a lot more than her, then I'd say you "should" pay for going out, but she should also offer to treat you once in a while, even if it's not to an expensive place. If you earn just slightly more than she does, you might need to just say that you can't be expected to pay for both of you all the time or go to expensive places all the time. If she's decent and likes you for you, she should be ok.

As for holidays, I know some women who earn a good living and still expect the man to "take" them on holidays. While others I know earn no where near what their partners earn and will expect to pay at least their own airfare (if the guy pays for accommodation and expenses on the trip).

So I think it's not so much what is "expected" by society and other people in general, you need to find out what is "expected" by the girl you're seeing. There is a difference between a girl who likes being treated well by a man and a girl who's just with a guy for his money.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by 788 (162 days ago)

I think it depends on the expectations of the 2 people involved, how they view the situation and if they can talk about it.

I was (still do) earning substantially less than my boyfriend now husband. I could not stand him paying for things every time we went out. I would politely always offer to split or ask in advance if we were going to a fancy place and decline if it was too expensive for me at that time of the month. I appreciate him respecting my view; he started cooking for me or taking me out hiking etc to spend time with me where we would not need to dole out loads of cash instead- made me fall in love with him.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Sweetsugarbabe (161 days ago)

I went out with this guy for the first date and he already stated his point of view in splitting the bill or a fair share. It totally turned me off. May be it's not about money. May be it's the feeling of finding a generous person. At least in the first or second date, I expect the guy to pay if it's not very expensive , especially it's just a drink or something.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Elodie (161 days ago)

Some people say "ain't no roance without finance". I think it's complete rubbish.
As a woman, I believe in equal treatment, and that means i get the bill on alternate dates, buy presents and all. It also means my man isn't "taking me" on a holiday: we are going together, and I don't need to wait for him to "take" me anywhere, actually! I'm no sheep and I don't need to be herded anywhere.
Money shouldn't be a problem in a relationship, shouldn't even be an issue at all.
If there are large discrepencies between your income, check yourself and see if you're only going to the expensive places, switch to more reasonable places, and see if she'll take the opporunity to get the bill, or still expect you to pay, or (worse but at least you'll know where you stand) complain that it's not fancy enough for her!
It may very well be that she has been taught a man always picks up the bill and buys you presents to show his love. It's up to you to show her that it's not the case. You should definitely address the issue, and explain YOU have not been brought up like that. Relationships are about sharing, aren't they? Sharing the bills, too.
She may not like it and dump you for someone who suits her idea of what a boyfriend should be like, but then, you will both be better off!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ribbons (161 days ago)

Yes, social norms are changing, but this question really comes down in individual cases to how the woman views herself. Does she see herself as a love object to be wooed and won? Or does she see herself like Elodie as a competent individual who resists the notion that anyone might seek to control her through money?

It's a difficult issue because on top of this, one has concepts of politeness, as well as sheer good manners and graciousness. Nothing worse than wanting to treat someone for a past favour or something - whether you are a man or a woman - and the other person can't bring themselves to accept.

I suggest you take a good look at your date, and ask yourself how she sees herself and the process and purpose of your dating - is it leading to 'winning' her or 'getting to know her' or 'just having fun'. If the question of money is starting to trouble you, then perhaps you should mention it, especially if you are planning a holiday together.

I wouldn't presume that someone needed to pay for me if it was a casual meeting, but if someone has said he wanted 'to take me out' to have a special meal or something, I would be surprised if he asked me to pay. If you've tended to pay for everything in the past, then she likely will expect it to continue, and think that a change of status might mean that you are either getting more serious with her (i.e. willing to be more honest), or less interested. That's why courtship periods in the past had to come to an end, usually with marriage. Few can keep up the ritual.

I suppose you have to ask yourself do you want to keep going out with this woman if she is going to be a financial drain, and it is getting less and less pleasurable. If you do want to turn it into a relationship, then you need to ask yourself 'to what depth'? Economic decisions really do indicate to others (and ourselves) what our intentions and priorities are.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by theworld (156 days ago)

thanks guys for all your help, some very sage advice.

we had a chat about it yesterday. don't know if it cleared up the air, but now she knows my position.

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by ribbons (156 days ago)

Good... gosh yes... isn't that's what it's all about - communication! My goodness, so few people are equipped with that skill.

Simply stating how one feels. How hard can it be?

Well done 'the world'. Whatever happens, it's all 'information' that you and she can deal with however you please. No second guesses.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by theworld (156 days ago)

well looks as though she was a bit off set by my position and we need to resolve it, how to is the million dollar question.

i've told her i am quite uncomfortable if i have to foot the bill each time we go travelling, be it a short trip to macau or an expensive holiday.

i am loathe at putting a monetary value to any threshold (i.e. if a trip is above HK$x then we need to spilt it and if its under a certain threshold then I'll be paying).

i think i am more comfortable for paying for stuff like meals, etc with her paying for drinks afterwards etc, esp as i do earn more money than her.

however its big things like trips, things that we both want to do, that i don't want to end up being a walking ATM.

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by foxmulder (155 days ago)

Hmmm... all this talk of who should pay for what takes me back to my ex girlfriend in London (about whom, more of which, later).

In London, I was used to dating women who had their own careers and were independent in every way -- including, financially.

If I asked a girl on a first date, I would expect to pay. Probably, I would expect to pay on the next date and then the next. My dates would normally just accept this as part of the courting process. But, after date number three or four, it would probably get to the stage of the girl insisting on going 50-50 - mainly because most women I dated would rather slit their wrists then rely, financially, on a man. From then on, it would normally be that we would share expenses -- whether it was going out for dinner or going on holiday. And then I came to Hong Kong. I was told about "Hong Kong girls". I heard stories of men waiting outside the designer shops whilst their girlfriends shopped inside only to call the men in to pay the bill. I didn't believe this. But then I started dating girls in Hong Kong and, lo and behold, I encountered an attitude that was totally alien to me -- so many girls expect a man to pay for everything, every time - and without even saying "thankyou". Now, if I am dating a girl whose financial position is substantially worse than mine, if I invite her out for an expensive dinner, I should pay -- how can I expect her to participate in the high life if she does not have the wherewithal to contribute? But what of those girls who are perfectly capable of paying their own way? Is this a Hong Kong thing? Are men expected to be a meal ticket? Maybe it is the culture here and that I should simply budget for it as I do for my rent etc. but I must confess that it really rankles -- it has nothing to do with my being mean but everything to do with what is fair.

Back to my ex girlfriend in London. She is the only one who adopted a "Hong Kong attitude". I was expected to pay for everything, every time. Strange thing was, although she was a British-born Chinese, her parents were from Hong Kong. Funny, that....

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tigerbay (155 days ago)

There is a cultral thing I believe.
My wife is Mainland Chinese, when we first stated dating she found it odd that I did not want to pay for everything and she thought i was very selfish. She was not a girl, but a career woman in her late 30s. So I assume there is some cultural expectation that the man pays.

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by RINZ (153 days ago)

It is a cultural thing. I am an indonesian chinese, and then there is this one german guy asked me on a date. But he refused to pay, he asked me to pay my meal, half-half, it really turned me off completely. I see him as a stingy guy. It is simple, in asia, we see the man as the head of the family, and he is supposed to be capable on supporting the family as a whole financially. We, the woman, sees the male as the one who is responsible for the family's financial term. Not the woman. So even if only on dates the man are not capable of paying, or does not want to pay, then we assume the man will be super stingy when married. Maybe we will not be allowed to spend money on expensive clothes or whatever. I have my own job, my own money, but i still remember how my crazy x boyfriend would scold me if i go shopping with my OWN money! Some asian couples think that once they are together, the financial of both person becomes one. Most asian woman,though,especially in hongkong, japan, singapore and shanghai are materialistic. It is not because they are born like that, but it is because of the environment and peer pressure. The trend and fashion in shanghai, for example, require woman to wear expensive stuff, bags or dress on occasion and perhaps some woman cannot afford it.But which woman does not want to look beautiful? then they depend on their boyfriend for this. But that does not mean that they are a cheap slut or something. It is their nature calls. Maybe if your girlfriend has a high salary or position, i do think that in asia they still might want you to pay. It is not because of the money, but because they want to feel safe and guaranteed that you can lead the family financially. Because in asia, if u depend on the woman for money, then for sure you are going to live havoc, live in poor terms, and in disgrace, because everyone will look down on you. What kind of a man are you?
I enjoy being single and pay my own meal, though. And i hate stingy man.

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by Strawberry_Shortcake (152 days ago)

Yes it is a cultural thing but one should not think all girls with an asian face are like that. Please, try not to.
Im a hk girl grew up abroad and I guess you could say I 'adopted' the western dating rules, I dont need a man to bring me to fancy places or buy me stuff, I dont need to feel safe having someone paying for me.
A bit of background, I have a medium salary but I enjoy life enough to go to fancy places/travelling on my own or split with a fd or even treat a man if I like him enough. No, I am not old nor desperate ;)
I had many materialistic friends who think Im stupid and they are constantly wishing for their sugar daddies but apparently sugar daddies could be quite picky and even if they manage to get one he would leave after he gets what he wants...

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by maxis (152 days ago)

It happens in western countries, but not remotely to the extent in Asia.

Sure, if there is a deparity in wages then it is only fair that there be a deaprity in who pays. 50/50, 70/30, 90/10 or even 97/3- doesn't matter.

What matters is the state of mind.

expectative right of indulgence = someone you don;t want in your life - end of story.

I have friends whose wives left them because they could "afford" them.
In fact, they certyainly could, it was merely their expectation (fantasy) wasn't being met - difficult if the girl's friends all have boyfreinds/husband who are filthy loaded, or a suck-rags handing over too much.

So, what if you suffer financial problems later, for any nuimber of reasons (economy/health/industry) - should you be dumped ? Or is it acceptable to wind back on the "generosity in those circumstances eh?

Greedy is as bad as mingy - they deserve each other.

Note, there are plenty of HK women who are NOT shoppa-leaches, and a very generous - FACT. But there are plenty of leaches too. You just have to try until you can find the right one.

And it appears irrespective of their own family wealth too.

Further, there do seem to many guys who are "sucessful" in HK but who lack personal confidence - thety are good targets for the shopa-girls!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by car_lover (148 days ago)

In my opinion, I dont think anyone shld generalize a race. I know some pretty nice asian girls who arent like that. As for me, I don't really mind paying for a girl, either during courtship or juz friends. It makes me feel good abt it and am juz being a gentleman, but wat i dont like is a girl EXPECTING a guy to pay for her meals or stuffs. That turns me off. And i think its BS for any girl who thinks tat any man who wants them are suppose to be their banker! I do pay for girls tat make more than wat i earn. To me, money aint everything, its the person's character tat is priceless.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by richweddle (128 days ago)

Frequency and type of outing are the key here, for me at least. A meal, a couple of times a week - go ahead and pick it up. A complete night out of food, dance and other entertainment once a month - go ahead and pick it up. A holiday once a year - okay, pay for it. If any one of these categories are more frequent give or take a little, discuss and divide as is appropriate. It doesn't go to income level between the parties but to expectations and one party taking advantage of the other party and over time, losing appreciation for what that person is doing. All the best! Rich from Boston

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by hoyo (116 days ago)

be careful of women who expects that the man always have to pay! they tend to take advantage of it and it will continue later if a serious relationship develops.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by stargazer_the (103 days ago)

It's a cultural thing

I was born in china, but i grew up in north america. However, b/c i grew up in places with a lot of chinese, my mindset is still very chinese. Chinese girls are very traditional and believe in courtship. Have you ever heard of a knight splitting the bill with his maiden? Yes, some fair ladies now earn a respectable income, but that doesn't mean they want to be treated like a man.. They're not materialistic..they just want to be treated nicely. Traditional asian men all know this. However, i think now days, paying for meals..drinks..recreational stuff that you guys do together is good enough. A chinese girl would prefer to be taken to MacDonald than splitting the bill at a fancier restaurant, even if she usually eat at 5 stars hotel with her own frds ( and paying for it!). It's not about how much you spend on her, it's about the gesture that you're taking care of her. If she's understanding, she'll treat you occasionally. All of this doesn't include designer handbags or her closet, if that's what she expects then..you are being taken as a walking atm....

When it comes to holidays, it would be the nicest thing if you can pay, but asking her to pay for the airfare is acceptable(if it's not out of her budget) ..

If ur up-bringing simply doesn't permit you to pay for ur girl all the time..or you pretend it's ok but secretly feel very uncomfortable, then you should tell her that.. this is a big cultural difference, and if neither one is willing to bend..then i think it's better to move on..

(I am based in Beijing)

Posted by huash1 (102 days ago)

I totally agree with Stargazer on this. I am a Chinese woman who have lived in the states over 15 years. I still do not feel comfortable with the concept of splitting the bill on a date, especially on the first date. However, I would offer to split the bill ONLY if I know for sure there will be no 2nd date.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ayumi (102 days ago)

it's nice when a man offers to pay for you, but this shouldn't be a rule cast in stone.

I prefer to split the bill, as it gives me an equal footing in the relationship. I don't want to feel i owed him something. If i cannot afford a very expensive restaurant/hotel, i suggest a cheaper one, or i let him pay but then buy him drinks in a nice bar, or pay for something else.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Michelle@Guangzhou (102 days ago)

As for me, I never pay when I go out with a guy on a date.Well,that doesn't mean I am a girl who only always take,but i will show my appreciation to that guy in other ways,like I will buy him presents to thank him for treating me good.I wanna be treated like a queen when we go out and if a guy asks me to split the bill,that will definitely turn me off and he will be deleted off my dating list.In return,I will treat him like a king like playing him music,giving him presents that i bought him when I went shopping with my GFs,etc..And that way really makes both of us feel happy coz it 's a give-and-take relationship!

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by sapphire26 (102 days ago)

I think 50-50 sounds nice!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by chungwan (102 days ago)

i think the guy should pay on first date - specially so if he asked for it - regardless of income differences. girls just love the feeling of being taken cared of.

however, the girl should volunteer to share the bill. if the guy insisted on paying for it and suggested that perhaps, they could share the bill the next time, i believe there would be a next time.

a decent person would not allow a date to always pay for him/her.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by whlady (102 days ago)

I don't need the guy to pay everything for me, i am independent, and i don't mind half-helf. but i do care of his thinking, if he will to pay everything because of love, that is enough. That is the right guy for me. then for return, i will to pay everything for him if he gets less money than me. haha

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by cpdkh (101 days ago)

Most of the chineses lady prefer their boyfriend to pay for all the bill & the man who want to split the bill is stingy! Some of the chinese office lady who has their own job & steady income, but still required their boy friend afford dating expense, this isn't a financial problem, probably it's culture shock.
In today's china, date with younger boyfriend is also popular, these kind of girl they don't mind half-half share bill, even totally pay for their younger boyfriend:)

There is also a group of traditional chinese woman, like two of my girl friends, they never work when they graduated from the college, their only dream is marriage, rely on the man, and become to a housewife, of course all their expense taken from man. Now one of the girl married to a Malaysia-chinese, the other married to a Taiwanese.

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by hk-gal (99 days ago)

Hi theworld, I hope you have sorted out things with your gf. If not, it will always be a problem in your relationship and I am pretty sure if it's not a big problem now, it will be in the near future. Let me tell you my story.

I am from HK. I have dated a few Western men in the past. From my experience, they 'volunteered' to pay for most things - not an expensive handbag nor a Tiffany rings but movie tickets, meals and drinks. However, I would never expect them to pay for my holdiays unless it's for a family event back to their home country or I was really skint and couldn't afford to have a holiday, then they might volunteer to pay. I thought it was only reasonable that in modern days, couples share expenses but I still believe the man should chip out a bit more and treat their ladies with nice dinners and drinks sometimes. I don't think it's too much to ask comparing with most of the other Chinese girls. Nevertheless, I don't think they should BE the standards of us Chinese girls for expecting LV/Gucci handbags from their bfs.

I have been with my current bf for 2 years now. When we started dating, he told me that it was a practice in the "West" (I hate that whenever he insinuates that it's more "civilised" in the "West") that couples go dutch on everything, literally EVERYTHING. Frist, I was put off with the idea because I was used to be "spoiled" and thought he was very stingy. At that point, I had two choices - either to walk or to stay. I made a decision to stay. It wasn't a difficult decision because 1) I can afford to pay for my own expenses, 2) money isn't everything in a relationship, 3) he didn't ask me to pay for him (which in a period of time I did with my ex as he was having a financial problem with his own business). It was fair play I thought. He pays 50% in rent more than I do and pays for the internet but we share everything else from a cheap bowl of wonton noodle soup to expensive holidays overseas.

It doesn't mean we don't argue though, I still think he's stingy and very calculating, but then I understand where he comes from and we have talked about how we feel. We just need to compromise and meet mid-ways.

I think the reason why you choose to be with an Asian woman is because she's comparatively more feminine and a bit exotic perhaps. But mate you can't have both world! You can either to share everything with a Western woman or if you are lucky, find someone in Asia who's willing to share most things with you but still you will be a gentleman and offer to pay sometimes.

I do still feel embarrassed sorting out monies in restaurants but I am totally used to the idea now.

What really surprised me was the other day when my bf came back out late and wasn't happy seeing no dinner on the table! I found it really amusing he thought I should be cooking him dinner most nights because he pays 50% more in rent! He's a lovely guy and I don't think anybody is perfect. I can live with saving for my own Chanel handbag.

Hope it helps. You may need to start finding another girl otherwise.
Ladies, did I make a wrong decision though as I was a bit disappointed and shocked when he came home the other day looking disappointed because I didn't cook for dinner! First he was reluctant to tell me what the problem was, then I pushed him and he said the reason why he could afford to pay 50% in rent more than I do because he spends more time at work, hence he gets more monies. I really don't think it's relevant. He gets paid 50% more than I do because he works in a senior role.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by crobeijing (96 days ago)

i don't really understand u guys!! if u really in love, u wouldn't asked this kind of kestions, "do i have to pay for her?"

(I am based in Beijing)

Posted by miki12 (95 days ago)

I prefer to pay for dinner and then let them pay for desert. Its a win-win.. they aren't being a mooch.. and I get cake without the girlfriend giving me grief about my unhealthy eating.

mmm cake.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by hualaan (93 days ago)

When I was single, if I asked a girl out on a date, I would pay. I considered this fair, since she wouldn't be going out without my asking and it was irrelevant who made how much money.

A relationship, though, is a different matter. You are trying to determine if you are truly compatible, if you can work as a team, have the potential to become lifelong partners. That's when you have to evaluate what each partner can bring to the table. If one can and is willing to bring the money and the other can and is willing to bring the household management skills, so be it. But if each can bring both money and household and other life skills, and they can integrate all this into a good partnership, that's also good.

My wife is from Bangkok, the daughter of a very independent and strong-willed mother. She has never wanted to be "taken car of" (she's not an invalid). We both work and all our income now goes into a single account. All our bills and expenses are paid from this account, and also all our dinners, drinks, entertainment, etc. She has been off work a bit and isn't currently making as much as I do, so we don't have a lot of discretionary income. When we do, however, our intention is that we'll each have an equal "allowance" from this common pot for our personal spending.

The Chinese "tradition" that the man must pay for everything to assure the woman that she will be taken care of obviously came about at a time when women in China could not/were not allowed to work. That made perfect sense at the time - as the same tradition made perfect sense in all other cultures when women were in such a position - but makes no sense today.

The woman who wants the career, the money, the freedom of modern society, but also wants the "tradition" of being a kept woman, really wants the "best" of both worlds. I'm afraid, though, few will get it. If they find a man with the finances and willingness to "keep them", well, they're going to be "kept women" and that's that: end of freedom, because being taken care of comes with "obligations" to your keeper. If she finds a man willing to support her career aspirations and allow her her freedom, he's also going to want her to be an equal partner in every way she's able, including financially.

So every woman and every man has to decide which she wants and if they're going to find it with the person across the table from them, or not.

(I am based in Bangkok)

Posted by dadda (92 days ago)

This is such a difficult topic. I am attached to a Chinese American lady. She has 2 kids from a previous marriage (Chinese guy) & the childrens father is meant to pay for the kids (including part rent payment etc). He basically pays nothing until brought into the court every 3 months. In 5 years he is 3 years behind in payments.

My wife started telling me I am 'stingy' a few months ago, and it really got to me. I give every cent I earn to the family & often have to dip into a line of credit or tax loan to cover the monthly expenses. I do pay for all clubs, sports activities, meals, rent, after school activities, petrol, medical etc, etc,etc & reall have nothing left. If this jerk of a dad ever paid his share then I would be happy & we could all live a nice life.

The fact that my wife called me stingy really gt to me so I made her sit down with me to go through the costs & how much goes to me, and nothing is left over. She hated me for 2 days but then she apparently realised she was on a good thing & had no right to complain.

I think you have to be upfront with money in relationships from the start otherwise these things come back to bite you.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Sigourney (87 days ago)

I think these days, everyone is pretty much aware of how much things costs - meals in a facy restaurant, pop concert, movies, etc.

Splitting the bill for a meal is not conducive to romance; there are opportunities for both parties to give and take. I remembered when I was dating my husband, I would invite him to a ballet (Kirov, no less) and he would pay for the meal afterwards (Post 97 - we had a routine afterwards...)

When we went on our first trip to Bali, we paid for our own flights. I claimed the hotel nights with my Amex points, and he offered to pay for the meals we had there. Give and take. It's really that simple. No need to go into that 50-50 or 60-40 split whatsoever. Reminds me of that movie The Joy Luck Club where the accountant husband splits everything down the line with the wife....downright vulgar to me.

I am Chinese btw, and my husband is Australian. As far as I have seen, all his Aussie mates back home are also pretty generous where dates are concerned. I don't think it is a cultural thing where the man is expected to pay, but rather an etiquette thing. As a female, from an etiquette point of view, I will always offer to pay for my bit (genuinely, taking out the cash from my wallet already), but would end up not having to pay afterall.

(I am based in Hong Kong)